Crossword Help Forum
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polyn - I admire your taking such a position and hope you're not alone in doing so.
There are two famous Listener creatures, the wren (rightly so, I think) and the infamous hare. Sadly, the hare has generated much more comment over the years, and now we get to suffer a return of its ilk (why the editors would want to revisit such a disaster baffles me).
However, the subtle play on words of 'standard crossword directions' is more helpful this time around - I can only justify one example of that phrase looking outside of the grid.
I know the general idea could be improved on so that pre-hare solvers have an equal chance of solving the puzzle, but it's a poor joke and should be put out of its misery, if you ask me.
I'd love to see a wren take flight again!

polyn - I use the online system so my puzzle was printed on a single A4 sheet. I scanned every letter on that sheet (I think) and only found one group of 4 letters that fitted the bill though I might have missed something.
I wonder if you turned up something on the same page in the newspaper copy outside the area that onliners printed. If so I think you are making a fair point.

drxx, what is this wren that you are referring to? Do you recall the puzzle number or setter? I am intrigued and about to go on holiday so will have more puzzling time than usual.

Have now finished. Figured out 12 and 15 after I'd calmed down a bit, and think I have the three types, although am somewhat confused by the references to cheese in the comments.

Just don't understand why someone would ruin a pretty good puzzle like that. Very strange.

Strongly disagree with the idea that you can rule out the third being in the grid in minutes. Often takes me an hour+ to spot the more well concealed grid entries and there were loads of possibilities here with multiple definitions of the theme and possible overlapping answers.

kitsune, the wren puzzle was No.4066 by Jago published on Boxing Day 2009

kitsune - Listener 4066 RENTOKIL by Jago (but I think I've pretty much spoiled the surprise, sorry). Better take your scissors with, and hope you have a very nice holiday.

sorry - '...with you'.

smithsax - I use the digital version, ssme ad you, which is pretty much identical to the newspaper version, but as you say, limited to the crossword only.

It’s difficult for me to explain too much here, as there is still a week left for submission, but the extra (repeat) thematic item is the shortest one, so it is available for highlighting in two different places.

Since it is possible, what would happen if someone submitted multiple entries I wonder?!

On a separate topic I’m surprised that there is no Listener forum on the Crossword Club site. Are we confident that the crossword editor monitors this forum, or are we just talking to ourselves?

Smellyharry - we know the options for the items and only two can be used to fill 4 letters.
We know they go across or down as in a normal crossword.
Check their first letters wherever they appear in the grid and you soon know you will not find them there.

smellyharry, once you have the theme and are looking for types described by the previous words in the quotation, there is a very limited set to look for. Once you find two, they don’t even have any letters in common with the remaining possibilities, and knowing the length of the last item we can spot that it contains one very noticeable letter which, as it happens, only appears once in the grid. We can quickly see that although the word can be sort of discerned in the vicinity, it is not in a form that fits the instructions.

I agree that the last time is “fair” and indeed I can see that some care has been taken in drawing up the preamble to make sure it is scrupulously so. However, I’m not sure I see the point of it: it doesn’t add to the puzzle, and isn’t particularly thematic. I think a gimmick like this is best kept for when it specifically amplifies some thematic aspect in a clever way.

polyn, I too cannot see any other occurrence of any item except the three I think we are meant to highlight. You’re either being sharper-eyed than us or are thinking along a different line altogether. However, we can imagine a situation where we are to highlight a word in the grid and the word appears twice through some carelessness on the compiler’s and editor’s part — in that eventuality, I’m sure highlighting either of the two cases would be accepted. If you think you’ve found an alternative, by all means highlight it to see if it’s accepted! But take care to really check that it matches every part of the carefully-worded preamble, because I can’t spot what you mean by that.

PS no, I don’t think we have any assurance that anyone particular monitors this forum. It’s for us to discuss and help each other. Some setters do look at it, and sometimes join in with discussion. But nothing is guaranteed. If you wish to make a view known to the editor I would write to him.