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Thanks. Is that def supported in Chambers or just sports jargon that is supposed to be generally well known?

Never mind...I found a suitable def online

I don’t comment on every point of view but I’m following the conversation regarding having one, two, three or a zillion threads.

I’ll reiterate what I said some time ago “ You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time”

I’m sorry that Will 37 and Brendan have been wary of posting on the Listener, I suppose it’s understandable though, with one thing and another we’ve been through a rough patch recently.

WHAT IS THE GENERAL CONSENSUS ON SMITHSAX’s SUGGESTION OF REVERTING TO ONE THREAD, SAY FOR A TRIAL PERIOD. You would all have to behave yourselves but it would save the confusion of which thread to use.

Otherwise, I like Loge’s suggestion of the two headings and Simplesimon, you are already one of my elves🥰

In risking a TL:DR but in short, absolutely. Take a look at the numbers on this weekend’s other Listener thread.

I’d suggest gentle hints only, and to clues only; never the theme.

Having instant access to Listener answers available is mentioned in neither the Bill of Rights nor Maslow’s hierarchy of needs, and the deprivation of such isn’t a cruel and unusual punishment.

Answers - with explanatory notes! - are freely available to the patient and impatient alike, simply by waiting a few weeks, however an old-fashioned concept this might be in today’s always-on world.

Some recent posters seems to treat the site like a call centre full of dutiful operators ready to take their call, with the inevitable threat of escalating the complaint and asking to speak to a supervisor, perhaps of even leaving a bad review.

The Listener really is different, and access to the answers needs to be earned, by the acquisition of years’ worth of crossword solving, from simple cryptically, to barred crosswords and thence gridfill:endgame. There is a wealth of previous crosswords, even Listeners, available for people to work through to get to that level. No-one I’m sure minds gentle hints as part of the learning process, but this should never be at the risk of either spoiling the crossword or being frankly appalling in behaviour to others.

Used to take a lifetime to become an astronaut - join the military; learn to fly; come top of your class; go to test pilot school; finish first, have a faultless and distinguished career and so on.

Nowadays, it’s a two-day course and enough money.

The other issue is that submitting a crossword as a prize entry should mean you’re only competing for a prize with peers, who’ve also completed fairly, to keep the denominator down. The chance of winning clearly lessens with every additional entry.

I’d like to think there are still some things that money simply can’t buy; winning a Listener crossword prize just might be one of them

Norah, I'd love to see a return to one thread. It would eliminate confusion about whether a post is on the "right" thread and probably make your job easier too, as you wouldn't have to spend your weekend looking for misplaced posts.

I'm not sure it's realistic to have a total moratorium on hints to the theme. It's often some aspect of the theme that provides the biggest obstacle to competing the Listener, last week's puzzle being a good example of this. The Inquisitor thread carries hints to both clues and theme (only when requested, in both cases) without actual spoilers, and works well. There's no reason the same set-up shouldn't work for the Listener, provided we all exercise some self-discipline. Which the majority of posters here do anyway!

HW7 - bravo!!!

Loge, HW7. Fully concur. In addition, as we’ve suggested before, perhaps a 24 hr blackout before posts are permitted. Expect Ash could implement this quite easily.
Norah, sorry about Norwich 😢

Simplesimon, it’s far simpler than involving Ash - we simply don’t post the threads until Saturday teatime.

AND it wasn’t a penalty

It didn't, 'take a lifetime to become an astronaut' (what would be the point if it did?) but a couple of week's waiting for information was the norm - before the invention of the telegraph. We've moved on a bit since then and our expectations have changed (this site is an example of it).

This week's Listener puzzle is on the gentle side and a single thread served it pretty well, but a tough one always requires more. I think we should stick with two threads because it's becoming quite clear that (as you rightly say, norah) there can be no pleasing some people, so a single thread is even less likely to please everyone.

We've had so many debates on the subject but the same arguments are again being trotted out for the Listener to be treated differently - revealing the same desire to control people who are willing to offer help. Help for a Listener puzzle is OK if you phone a friend, email an answer on request, have a listener 'partner', use an anagram solver... but not when it's asked for here - a site designed to help people with answers to crossword puzzles. Why should that be?

I'd suggest that the more helpful of the two threads should have ''try to avoid SPOILERS'' in the title and repeat offenders should be dealt with appropriately (but it wouldn't surprise me if someone 'offended' just to rock the boat).

Drxx, why not omit the word ‘try’ and just go for “avoid spoilers”.

I’m considering all comments but not this afternoon, there is an important Grand Prix to watch so can you please all behave yourselves.

I’ll decide what to do by Friday and notify you all accordingly.