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quixote

30th December 2021, 16:28
I'm going crazy.
Loge seemed to think that I was almost there, but having a full grid and, I believe, a total understanding of (a), (b) and (c) in the preamble, plus a correct solution to Lionheart's parenthetic cryptic clue in the preamble and thus the exact type of substitution required and a correct solve of 18,12, . I know all about (c) and the ambiguities associated with it.
However, after staring at the grid for hours, and hearing the satisfied smug honks of Williamseal from his sandbank I'm still completely unable to see what to substitute with which.

How to frame this without giving too much away?
I'll try - Norah - shoot me down in flames if, in your judgement, I transgress:

The 3 'normal' clues all share three attributes: beat; seasonal genre; specific auditory mode as published for performance..

One further thematic combination of verbal and symbolic representation indicated by (c) also shares those three attributes - the other associated possibility only shares two of the attributes - the third is modally different.

The preamble specifies "...a substitution" - ie. just one - this seems to me to preclude more than one of the three 'normal' entries - all of which appear in their symbolic sequences in the grid - being the target of the substitution.

Or, if none of the three 'normal' entries is the target, perhaps the substitution is of one of the symbolic sequence options clued by (c) by the other one - but stare as I may, I can see no match to either of these anywhere in the grid outside the six 'normal' lights, even if the modally different one is transposed to match the other four.

I'm further confused by Loge saying that the problem I have with the final entry of 18,12 spoiling the thematic symbolic sequences of all three 'normal entries, with a clashing non-symbolic letter in each 'normal' light - six
in all - is 'redundant' in the finished grid.

Recent posts by others shed more smoke than light.

So - totally foxed.
Loge, Williamseal, anyone - can you hint to me what I'm missing without breaking the 'rules' of this forum?

[P.S. Used to attend live performances by 18.12 and others, and followed him into performance of that genre for the last 65 years - and still occasionally. JG sussed this long ago.]
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jazzgirl

30th December 2021, 16:34
Behave quixote ! (just joking)
JG
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loge

30th December 2021, 16:51
Sorry that my attempts to help have confused you, Quixote!

SmellyHarry's post 127 may be of help. Much as I'd like to, I can't think of another way to hint at the substitution that (a) hasn't already been done by me and others and (b) isn't a direct spoiler. If something occurs to me later I will post it.
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thepost

30th December 2021, 17:02
Thank you Xwordfan. Having read your reply I became full of confidence until I Googled C*******K. I got to the last page (18!) and could find nothing relevant.
What I need is just a list somewhere of "other tunes" to equate to JTTW and OLTOB. Somebody must have found a useful page somewhere. Getting close to capitulation.
HELP!
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malone

30th December 2021, 17:19
ThePost. I haven't read the earlier hints, but I know that googling C....B and the two word phrase, defining the theme, the altered entries, gave me the replacement immediately. I didn't even have to click on anything else, the information was listed.
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peterm

30th December 2021, 17:20
I don't know if this will help or hinder, quixote, but I'll try. (b) of the preamble relates to 7 words made from the extra letters. The final grid will show an example of the first 2 words, ie singular. I took that as being "a substitution" (singular). Thepost - there is only one title. Take a look at the wiki entry for (c).
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quixote

30th December 2021, 18:08
JG - xx
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quixote

30th December 2021, 23:31
Guided by Loge's citation of Smellyharry's post #127, I've settled for a rather unsatisfactory 'substitution' (bits only) of (c) into the grid.

Completing the preamble instructions with the overwriting of 18,12 then leaves the grid with no performable thematic sequences at all, as far as I can see.

Only time will tell if this is really all there is - or that I've missed creating some gloriously clever orchestration of Yuletide harmony through sheer stupidity; if not, I totally agree with Smelly's low opinion of this solution - such a clever idea to start with, but like the 'normal' answer entries, it just petered out inconclusively.

I hope we're mistaken.

Ironic note: in desperation I did try Googling the prominent answer at bottom right (43a) +'normal' genre - thinking that it might be some parochially nominative indicator equivalent to (c): interestingly, this immediately directed me to an ongoing Alternative seasonal celebration with a content deliberately and specifically excluding the thematic genre of the 'normal' items here!

Happy New Year to all!
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quixote

30th December 2021, 23:37
- and thanks too, Peterm.
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jack aubrey

31st December 2021, 09:54
I suspect that those who were disappointed by the endgame were expecting a wholly technical solution within the apparent genre of the normal clues. A “gloriously clever orchestration of Yuletide harmony” as quixote so memorably phrases it.

I thought that might be it too, and was appropriately cowed given my almost complete lack of necessary knowhow. But what I think Lionheart was offering was simply a lighthearted cruciverbal replication of (b) as played out by those instructed by 18,12 in what is now the traditional laborious fashion distinguishing between the two elements involved. (The - actually unnecessary - contortions of the “normal” clues were possibly also intended to reflect that sort of instruction.)

So I think it was more of a seasonal jeu d’esprit than an attempt at a 40 part motet. If one expected the latter, then disappointment would be an understandable reaction.
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