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Thanks will37, but still couldn’t find it in my on-line version of The Times - however, have now got it from the Dropbox thanks to an earlier post. Happy New Year everyone

Still struggling on here on the sandbank and as the weather is very grey I do not feel any urge to get in to the water to entertain the visitors on the boats out of Morston. Delighted with number four grand-pup (67 years younger than me) who went through the hymn sheet and found 1,17 (a very difficult clue to parse, but done).

The substitution for the end game is still eluding me - despite the most generous help above from loge and gitto in particular. I've put b) through google and come up with a phrase 2, 5,1,6.1,4. This is near but not quite a list set out in the 60s above. This doesn't fit into 18,12 and doesn't lead to a name or a genre, but may be a clever joke.

Oh dear - still only Tuesday and don't want to ask for too much.

WS, that phrase is relevant inasmuch as it's associated with 18 12, and there's a joking reference to it in the preamble. But it won't really help much with the substitution. Think of another example of the three items clued by the normal clues, which you might be able to fit into the grid in a consistent way. In an earlier post I've suggested search terms to find a relevant Wiki article. I hope this helps without transgressing the spirit of the thread - it's impossible to tell sometimes!

Thanks loge for this prompt response. It's appreciated. I still can't quite see it but will ponder a little longer.

Loge - in reply to your #109 -
I fully understand that one particular verbal thematic sequence associated with (c) is closely related to the three 'normal' answers; what I was afraid of was that in some devilishly twisty way the denial of the moor involvement might somehow imply that the symbolic sequence to be entered (sustituted) might not be that of (c), but actually that of the much more familiar symbolic sequence normally associated with that verbal sequence.

But i think that's unduly paranoid, and I now think that it is the commencement of the symbolic sequence of ('c') itself that is to be entered.

But where? Substituted for what?

My point about the six non-symbolic clashing letters in 18,12 (I mistakenly said four earlier - so no anagram) is that they spoil the three 'normal' thematic sequences - Williamseal's clever pups will make a sadly incomplete rendering of these three thematic answers if they follow what is in my grid; and the symbolic sequences are incomplete anyway - in my grid they just peter out in mid flow...

So how are these six clashes to be resolved? - Loge's reply implies that nothing needs to be done.

Maybe the substitution of ????????? by (c) sorts it all out - but the statement in Lionheart's preamble that this substitution results in even more non-word entries is dispiriting - in sad contrast to the quite brilliant avoidance of any such thing in last week's Listener 4690.

Feeling very stupid - hoping for Pennies from Heaven...

Quixote, if I understand your first paragraph correctly, you're pretty close to nailing it, from your consideration of a much more familiar symbolic sequence being required and your mention of a verbal thematic sequence related to the normal answers. If you go with that you'll see that concerns about disrupting the thematic entries become redundant.

I realise that's about as clear as the instructions on a piece of self-assembly furniture, but I'm trying to help without being too obvious.

Perhaps we should have gone for the coding option - ONLY KIDDING!

quixote
It seems we are facing the same challenges. Do post if you crack it and let me know if the moor is relevant. What a struggle! I am the point of settling for Worzel Gummidge with eh grand-pups. Excellent TV reception her thanks to the disc on the sandbank.

Thanks William

I've cracked 18, 12 ! I used to listen every Monday evening to a programme in a genre I greatly enjoyed. Still struggling with substitution - as quixote says "where"? Battling on and thank you all.
(Hope I haven't strayed offside Norah)

Apologies for recent radio silence. Been a bit under the cosh.

It’s hard to give a nudge on the substitution that isn’t actually a shove over the line. But try this: consider how the “normal clue” answers are entered and then aplly a very precise reading of (b).

“Apply” it should say!