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quixote

10th April 2023, 15:33
Well, all done - and although the theme and endgame are very ingenious amd well-constructed, I stand with Demeter - not because we don't need occasional easy ones pour encourager les débutants, but because we've now had several two-dayers in a row (and a two-dayer for me is really fast) - I want something to exercise my brain well on into the week.

Don't know if others see it this way, and pace Smithsax #42, but I see the thematic resolution not as a simple topical celebration, as expressed by the 37 letters highlighted as the preamble instruction, but as a rather more subtle expression of a controversy about exact dates: alerted by an earlier (since deleted) post to a further 7 cells unmistakeably placed in a very appropriate place by the setter to indicate this controversy, I've not highlighted these 7 extra cells, but I've greyed them in with graphite pencil.
Hope this doesn't bring down the wrath of Mr. G.

So - considerably craftier and more ambiguous than it looked.
[Norah - if this is TMI - strike me out.]

Jack Aubrey #22 mentioned a message in the across clues- but I can't see it - have I missed even more ambiguity?

Thank you, Chalicea
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quixote

10th April 2023, 15:43
Oops - silly me - sorry Jack - of course there's a message in the across clues - brain fog.
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smithsax

10th April 2023, 20:08
I think I can see the seven letter word but for me no controversy.
The timing of publication makes it clear what is needed.
For me there is little satisfaction in completing a puzzle quickly.
The best puzzles take a long time to complete, have a clever p.d.m. that makes me smile and and are completely unambiguous. This
wins in the second and third categories. So it is a thumbs up from me.
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quixote

11th April 2023, 00:04
Smithsax - the timing of publication actually doesn't make it completely, unambiguously clear - the thematic phenomenon is not now thought to coincide with the specific celebration strongly implied by the highlighted cells.

The cryptic 7-letter entry I refer to that points out this disagreement is not a simple word, but a name masquerading as a simple word entry - Google that name and the thematic location together, and all becomes clear (-ish).

I'm struggling to explain this without giving too much away - Norah, please erase me if I'm doing so - but actually none of this affects the completed grid with the highlighted theme that is to to be submitted - so I'm not giving the theme away - it's just a bit of cryptic icing on Chalicea's cake; HotelWhiskey7 may be able to contribute some more subtle guidance.
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smithsax

11th April 2023, 08:58
quixote - yes I see what you mean. I did not express myself very well. I meant that there is no ambiguity about what should be highlighted. The reference to controversy about the event timing adds to the quality of the puzzle without introducing ambiguity.
So I think we agree.
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0pt0

11th April 2023, 13:06
I consider the criticism of this puzzle and its setter to be totally out of place. it is a very cleverly constructed grid and I thoroughly enjoyed completing the puzzle. I do not know whether any of those who have posted critical comments here have ever tried to compile a puzzle suitable for The Listener. I have tried and it is unbelievably difficult. It should also be remembered that the numbers taking part in solving Listener puzzles have been falling and if this continues, the editors of The Times may be tempted drop it. Therefore, anything which encourages new solvers to take part should, in my opinion, be applauded, rather than condemned.
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allbarone

11th April 2023, 22:31
As usual I have nearly everything - just one letter missing!

For 2d I can't see the wordplay to give me the unchecked letter - is it 'e' or 'o'.

Is there an abbreviation for outmoded I can't find?
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allbarone

11th April 2023, 22:35
I agree completely with smithsax @53.

Great puzzle, clever construction, clues on the easier side.
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hotelwhiskey7

11th April 2023, 22:51
Re 2d; it’s an obsolete (outmoded) word for before/previously; two letters.
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quixote

11th April 2023, 23:33
0pt0 - well done for springing to the setter's defence, but I don't think that I or most others that have criticised this puzzle intend to make a personal attack on the setter - as universally acknowledged, the theme is very cleverly conceived and constructed - with the addition of Chalicea's bonus ghostly reveal that's not mentioned in the preamble, that isn't mentioned in the preamble,
and is a mischievous delight; it's a very enjoyable puzzle.

I repeat: thank you very much, Chalicea.

It's being critcised because the clues are too easy: many of us like to be able to worry away at the Listener well into the week
- nothing against the occasional puzzle that is do-able by beginners - they're essential to bring in new enthusiasts (I even tolerate the numericals because they appeal to a lot of people, as evidenced by the statistics) - but we've now had quite a sequence of Listeners that can be solved by Saturday morning or Sunday, and it's really past time for some tough red meat.
So, the criticism is not of Chalicea, but mildly, and while acknowledging all their hard work, of the Editors - OK, they had little choice but to put this topical theme up last weekend - and may , I suppose, conceivably not be receiving any harder submissions - but I hope we'll have something to really chew on soon.

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