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4th June 2020, 10:01
I'm far from being a member of the hair-shirt brigade, and I would have gladly used a program to fill the second grid if I was computer savvy enough! Can anyone suggest what program I'd need, in case we get another puzzle like this?
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williamseal

4th June 2020, 18:02
This one seems to have generated quite a discussion. I'll add my bit in case the editors are taking notice. I greatly enjoyed the first Phase because of the quality of the clues. I understood what was needed in Phase II and, with plenty of time, spent perhaps six hours trying to refill the grid. This was an exercise in sustained meticulous concentration. This is not my bag at all and is why I never enjoyed playing chess.

I gave up in frustration and cannot say I enjoyed it. Sorry, I don't want to be unfair.
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crates

4th June 2020, 20:44
williamseal - As I said in a previous post I found it a bit of a 'curates egg' - good in parts. Phase 1 was quite difficult (cold solving) but enjoyable. Assuming all across clues solved, following the preamble, surely phase 2 was much easier. (No spoiler as 1st letter (M) and second letter (U) of initial answerhave been mentioned earlier in the thread). If M went in 1,1 then alphabet counting across the row/rows a,b,c etc until you reached M and inserted the U then re-started a,b,c etc until you reached U and inserted the third letter would take minutes not hours?
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drxx

4th June 2020, 22:10
crates - You should realise that a 'curate's egg' is something bad - good things are attributed to it, but merely out of politeness.

In this 'curate's egg', are you really suggesting that part of the good in it is its simple second grid fill?
And is counting a running total up to around 1600 an easy task that should only take minutes?

It's worth remembering that we've probably converted letters to numbers each time, and we're working on two different values each time (the letter/number from and to). If a momentary lapse of concentration occurs (you confuse the letter's number value or forget the letter/number you've departed from or blink and miss a square or fall asleep out of sheer, mind-numbing boredom) then you start all over again from, as you say M/(13) 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 U/(21) 1 2 3 4 5............

This puzzle is a 'curate's egg' - you're quite right.
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williamseal

5th June 2020, 05:35
Thanks drxx
You've taken the trouble to express perfectly the problem that I encountered. One momentary lapse of concentration was all it took - and I had sufficient lapses to make me give up in despair. I was able to go back to the Welsh Rugby Union's competition of the best ever - nowhere near as demanding and far more fun!!
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crates

5th June 2020, 08:23
drxx - my comment was in no way meant to imply criticism - apologies if it did.
My feelings were -
Phase 1 - enjoyable - not usually a fan of cold solving
Phase 2 - tiresome - wrote list of answers and as a letter was input crossed off list and mentally recited the alphabet across the cells till I reached that letter (to avoid using numerics) and put next letter in that cell then continued process over and over again. Can see one blip would be a problem. Still took about 30 mins.
Phase 3 - time consuming - Knowing only locations of 1st and 4th letters of first destination
Was impressed with final grid construction (but previous comments suggest easily done with software) but somewhat disappointed (as always) when left with a jumble of letters.
I am aware of the 'polite' connotation of the Punch cartoon but I used it in the everyday usage 'anything of which some parts are good and some parts are bad'

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drxx

5th June 2020, 10:30
No offence taken, crates - and thanks for the extra detail.

I think the prayer you delivered to avoid a recount would have stood me in better stead than counting by reeling off the alphabet each time (that's where I came unstuck - it can be very disconcerting counting as far as 'T', say, and seeing a 'T' at that very place in the grid!). And, as you say, you got lucky with the first location - I didn't.

I think your 30 mins on the 2nd fill was a very good time, crates - I'm closer to williamseal's time than that (by the way, I think you spent the time saved on this puzzle very well, williamseal!).

On the bad egg - I suppose the shell could be excellent, but even that's broken by the time you get to the rot.
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imac

5th June 2020, 13:02
How can you insert 22 down when there are two unchecked letters but no duplicate letters?
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gem94

5th June 2020, 14:19
Remember, if the answer is not entered in the ordinary way, it is cycling.
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crates

5th June 2020, 14:38
As Gem94 says - entered cyling not jumbled...
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