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S_Pugh, I was thinking what a great post from you until I read the last para. Maybe you'll reconsider. I hope so. I was just saying to the other party that I've had my share of disagreements, but never has that become a reason not to come onto the forum.

And if my involvement has just made things worse, please accept my apologies.

Kirky, I went through all the 25 permutations for each, or at least as far as I needed to. TRAER (in that sequence) actually decoded into a real word, meaning : "a kind, a literary or artistic style..." The answer you're looking for is an anagram of that and a slang word for grass. Think veg.

If it helps further, I think the shifts are -1, -3, -4 and -13

Thanks Meursault ... just managed to find the octagon word as you posted. ( a colour hopefully!)

I think i shall go and lie down now in a darkened room along with several others from this thread!!!!

A convalescent home for Listener solvers. What a great idea. Though I'm sure we'd all get on each others' nerves terribly...

s_pugh, like you I have been busy, and unfortunately I missed your earlier post. No need for any apology, but it was very gracious of you. I never come here until I've finished, so like you, I was only ever trying to help and avoid people being sent down blind alleys. I'm aware I overreacted, and offer my own apology for that. I hope it's forgotten. I too will be less tetchy if I post again - I hope!

I don’t think 13 is an and-lit, which would be offensive to Kabul. I think the definition is Capital, and KL is the city in Asia.

Hi, rad,

I agree. I thought that the capital of Malaysia was now Putrajaya, but apparently Kuala Lumpur is still the official capital, while Putrajaya is the federal administrative centre.

The University of Malaya, in KL, is ranked 114th in the 2018 World University Rankings, which puts it easily in the top one percent of world universities. The top-ranked university in Kabul is the American University of Afghanistan, which is ranked around number 5,500.

Finally managed to complete this crossword. I thought it was diabolically difficult, although the compiler, Sabre, is a master. I would like to thank everyone in the forum, once again, for all the hints and comments without which I would never have been able to completely finish the puzzle. Incidentally what does an and lit mean? Does it mean a clue where the definition is part of the wordplay?

Casanova, in an & lit clue the definition and the wordplay coincide throughout. One example from the Chambers Crossword Manual written by Don Manley is "No fellow for mixing (4,4)". The answer is LONE WOLF and the whole clue is the definition and the wordplay.

A clue where the wordplay enhances the definition but doesn't occupy the whole of the clue is known as 'semi & lit'. Genuine & lit clues are quite rare because they are tricky to write. It's not uncommon to find semi & lit clues described wrongly as & lit by solvers on blog sites. If the above clue were, "He's no fellow for mixing" it wouldn't be & lit because 'He's' plays no part in the anagram material; it would be semi & lit.