Crossword Help Forum
Forum Rules

Chrise & Les: what I don't like about that Araucaria clue (answer ACRID from a "cri de coeur") is that it's a hybrid of 2 languages, even if you do happen to be an "expert in French"! Or does it not offend others to see 2 distinct languages mixed in a clue like this?

....and having read both longer texts on possibly unfair clues, in general I'm FOR allowing the occasional transgression of a supposed "rule": I don't want to shock you, but I find the "anagrind" obligation tiring & in the end unnecessary; even Aristo's "ghost" anagrams (like those quoted in the very long text)I personally find tolerable as long as they're reasonably easily guessable! And surely that is the point: we all have different associations, favourite tricks in setting, etc, but as long as the clue draws on the enormous fund of shared background knowledge it can be OK. Sounds like a plea for too much subjectivity, I realize. Main thing is that the creative fun of solving (and setting) predominates; each of us may have his personal quibble occasionally, but there CAN be no 100% book of hard-and-fast rules in my opinion.

Hi GK
I described the ACRID one as a "ghost hidden word", by analogy with the "ghost anagram".

I think if you're using a foreign language it's only fair to have an indicator - In Paris, say, or Hollande's which was used in the latest Genius. I can't agree with GK about the anagram indicator, though. It's part of the discipline of good cluing, and I love the sudden discovery of well-disguised example as a solver, just as I love trying to find just the right word as a setter.

I'm with Bullfrog. Common foreign words or phrases are not off limits as long as there's something like "across the Channel" in the clue. Even something as common as a Latin word should be accompanied by something like "in the Forum". I also think that an anagram indicator is always called for, and that choosing one is often the most gratifying part of setting that kind of clue.

I agree with Bullfrog and think it's totally unfair to use a word or words in another language if you don't indicate this.

Just checked and "cri de coeur" is in the main body of the current Chambers, not in the "Foreign languages" supplement at the back.

Hi ab
Even setting aside my concerns about the clue, is it fair that the hidden word is A (english) CRI De coeur (french)?

Thanks, AB, ChrisE, et al, for the links & comments re ghost anagrams. I don't remember the exact chain, but those led to other threads as far back as 2010. Some very interesting discussions.

I've been guilty (?) of using that type as well. See 49A. Can't blame Les. He picked the other clue, but I persisted.
At least no-one complained. We have a very civil group here. No vitriol such as I read elsewhere.

Some more grist for the mill:
http://www.crosswordsolver.org/forum/252583/ghost-anagrams

http://cryptics.wikia.com/wiki/Indirect_anagram

Bottom line -- they seem to be OK if reasonably inferable.

Keep on Truckin'.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahkKwYjH_xk&feature=related

Are we having fun yet? YEAH !