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syzygy

7th November 2012, 06:06
The Wiki link didn't really deal with what I was implying with the wink re Ximenes.
I had read a piece by Don Manley about his (X's) followers & their rather rigid views.

However, after perusal of other articles, it seems Ximenes applied some very reasonable, lasting ideas.
So now I'm leaning more in his direction. Perhaps some of our clues are getting too lax or extreme, & maybe unfair.

This might explain it better:
http://alberichcrosswords.com/pages/id51.html

Thoughts from our crew?

BTW, any cheers for clues this month, or did I miss a thread?

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les40

7th November 2012, 16:45
Thanks for the links Syzygy,

I found the reading really interesting, certainly some great pointers, advice and guidance for future clue writing.
I must say though, when reading the second link about Ximenean rules to crossword compilation, I didn't see the 3 problems with the Wisdom clue to be Norman, I only spotted the unfair use of the missing capital letter and for it to appear at the beginning of the clue.
I feel that with the Joint Effort crossword, if I adopted this strict set of rules for each clue's construction (which I probably wouldn't spot anyway knowing me), it would create an abundance of extra feedback emails which in turn would make the whole thing more of a chore than an enthusiastic labour of love for me and maybe deter new or novice setters from taking part in the "Just for fun" concept of the puzzle.
I try my best to feedback and tweak clues wherever possible to make them more fair for the solver, however, I do realise that the odd few do slip through the net and do cause some controversy with the site members.
The adding of "The question mark" to a small number of clues is a good thing I think, because it gives the setters of those clues a benchmark for their learning curve of clue construction, and being alerted to these can only be a good thing for the lesson of "Learn by your mistakes"
The few clues that could be deemed as maybe not as fluid or sharp as the rest is (in my opinion) greatly outweighed by the opposite end of the grid's spectrum, with the truly magnificent skill shown with clues that gain "A star rating" from the forum members.
On a whole, I feel that as the months have passed by with the Joint Effort, the standard or bar has been raised immeasurably with all the setters that are involved with the clue writing, with some superb inventive craft and skill.

My original plan envisaged with the idea of the Joint Effort was to observe a crossword that promoted difference in styles of construction.
I feel we have achieved this with the development of certain characteristics from most of the setters.
For example, AB and his style of brevity, pastille being risque, perterm with his clever concealment of the definition, aristophanes, ixion and yourself with their cunning misdirections, and many more with shrewd and witty anagrams and deftness of hidden meanings. Not to mention the emergence of the whole and part &lit clue and the vast improvement in surface reading.
I sense that all who are involved in or solving the Joint Effort are learning new skills from each other (I certainly am). Which, I think you may agree can only be a good thing.

Feedback welcome.

Les40


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chrise

7th November 2012, 16:59
Two very interesting posts - thanks syzygy and les. Food for thought. I remember you, les, saying that you send particular words to setters whose style suits them!

btw syzygy, there was a thread on JE plaudits (or something similar) started, I think, by rosalind
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bobs mum

7th November 2012, 17:41
DON'T STOP LES
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djawhufc

7th November 2012, 17:49
Les
I think your last post is spot on in terms of explaining the spirit of the Joint Effort.

I know that everyone appreciates the amount of effort you put in and wouldn't want that to become a chore. It is in the nature of crosswords that some clues don't sit well with everyone- just look at 15 squared or The Guardian's own website on a daily basis. The odd grumble about a clue one would have written differently is a small price to play for the undoubted amount of fun that The Joint Effort provides for us all.

Thanks again for the time and trouble you put in. Here's looking forward to December's Xmas Special.

All the best

DJA
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aristophanes

7th November 2012, 17:49
This perhaps is not the place to post messages of such a personal nature. :)
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aristophanes

7th November 2012, 17:50
Post 16 was for bobs mum.
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bobs mum

7th November 2012, 17:59
Huh ??????
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bobs mum

7th November 2012, 18:01
OHHHHHHHH i ged it Doh --aristo u bad boy--i think, or it might be my mucky mind!!!!! Les knows what i mean LOL :)))))))
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aristophanes

7th November 2012, 18:22
Les: If there are quibbles they're usually petty, and I for one truly enjoy the potluck format; I always "cheat" and see who wrote the clue before I solve it, since I've gotten to know the various setters' brands of deviousness fairly well. Thanks again for taking on this chore; even though it's a labor of love it's still- well, a lot of labor (forgive hick Yankee spelling).

ChrisE: Sorry to disappoint you. :(
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