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Nora - I give praise rarely - but your response was perfect. I happen to be one of those who only visit sites once I have completed (my preference) - but have no problem with anyone visiting the site earlier if they require a 'nudge' which I, amongst others, are willing to give. This issue 'raised it's head' some time back. I remember as a lover of crosswords that I said, in my view, that we should encourage more participation and not treat it as a 'closed shop'. My only misgivings were people disclosing the theme and others who asked for a nudge and were just given the answer. You and other site members have eradicated this - so until this week harmony has ruled ... keep up the good work ...

I don't tackle the Listener word puzzles. However, I'm curious to know the amount of help the posters on here get from the internet and various programs like TEA and Quinapalus. Does no one just use an actual Chambers dictionary any more?
I appreciate that it's up to you how you choose to solve a puzzle in that it's not an exam paper. But, if it was and all you have is a copy of Chambers then how would you get on?
Perhaps that might be a fairer way of deciding who gets the Solvers Silver Salver. The all-corrects have to solve four further puzzles, one of which is a mathematical - obviously! They are given a copy of the relevant reference works for the crosswords and a set of tables and scientific calculator for the mathematical. That would separate the wheat from the chaff!

Oyler - I disagree with your premise. My forte was Mathematics for my education and career - but I do not do the mathematical Listener crosswords - not because I can't but because CROSSWORDS gives the game away. There are plenty of alternative mathematical puzzles. Re the BRB (Chambers) -good luck on proper nouns without the aid of google/anagram solver. I think from your first sentence you SHOULD try the Listener crossword - then give an opinion ,,,

Long long ago there was a Listener called Northern Lights by, if I remember, Twudge. The unclued lights were all stations on London Transport's Northern (tube) line. I lived on the NL as a boy, so had no difficulty, but if I had grown up in, say, Manchester - or worse, Cape Town - I couldn't possibly have known the names ... without a reference book as well as BRB. Nowadays I routinely solve puzzles where no reference book would have helped, but Mr Google did the trick. It would only be possible to abide by Oyler's strict rules if setters kept themselves to subjects which could be regarded as General Knowledge, but what does one do about Literature? Is a working knowledge of Shakespeare to be excluded? Surely not, but if Shakespeare why not Terry Pratchett? And so we have to accept that life has moved on, and setters - and solvers - will be expected to have access to the infinite library that is out there now.

Thanks to the cavalry for rushing to my support - Williamseal, Jack Aubrey, Rad, Malone and Crates. Your kind comments about my monitoring of the Forum are much appreciated.

Life has been very peaceful lately on the Forum, even the Listener has been running fairly smoothly, so let's hope this little spat dies down very quickly.

As Malone says in her heading, the Listener is a unique puzzle and should be treated with respect. One thing I do know, it is unique in that it gives me more problems than all the other puzzles put together😂

Nevertheless, I bear it no grudge and allow it to be the only puzzle which has a fully capitalised heading on the list of threads. For consistency, I turn all others into lower case letters, apart from those listed by acronyms.

Thanks everyone for your continued support.

To crates. I'm puzzled as to why you have capitalised certain words. I should have added that I have solved, if my memory is correct, four of the Listener word puzzles. Three were in the the 1990s and the most recent was the 25th anniversary of the puzzle appearing in The Times which was in 2016. Just because I don't tackle them doesn't mean that I can't have an opinion. I grant you that it may not hold as much sway or be worth as much as those that do. As for there being "plenty of alternative mathematical puzzles", the majority are not crossnumber puzzles but logic puzzles. There are few outlets for crossnumber puzzles apart from mathematical journals - The Magpie and CQ being the exception. It's a shame that you don't tackle the mathematical ones as the next puzzle should be one so you'll have a weekend off.

To cockie. Thanks for the reply - much appreciated. Of course we will use all the resources that are available nowadays - it's just that I'm Living in the Past!

I'd like, if I may, to add a few thoughts to this discussion that has, thankfully, regained its equilibrium after norah's welcome and diplomatic intervention.

I'm a longtime Listener solver - I started in the 1980s as a student, had several long gaps then returned regularly over the last decade once daily life had freed up a little time. The puzzles now are much more complex both in terms of their creation and what is expected of the solver. Back then it was the BRB, ODQ and an occasional trip to the library to access the OED. Now, many more solvers achieve all-corrects with the help of online aids, which is why we have a puzzle such as this week's to try and reduce that number. Deliberately vague or imprecise preambles are, I think, a relatively recent invention and, personally, I find 'guess what I'm thinking' puzzles very annoying.

Is collaborative solving 'cheating'? No, of course not. The current self-policing never gives a theme away - no-one could solve an entire puzzle by reading posts on this site. It's no different from doing a daily puzzle in the pub and the bloke at the bar looking over your shoulder and helping you with 1 down.

Except, of course, with the Listener we have the tyranny of the annual statistics. I've achieved an all-correct once and had a few near-misses. I didn't go to the annual dinner (my supposed 'reward') and haven't been invited since. I find the 'Listener coterie', often to be found on another site, to be pompous and self-congratulatory - and, as mentioned earlier, almost certainly sharing what we might politely term 'mutual support'. Let them, as far as I'm concerned.

I do, however, think the league table of solvers has had its day, for reasons given above. Yes, it's interesting to see how many entries there were for the puzzles, common errors etc, and solvers might like to know their own errors to help them improve. But the league table is simply fuel for the self-described elite.

I worry that the low entry numbers for the Listener (and Azed) could see both disappearing from their newspaper as the space could be more profitably used, and becoming solely online phenomena. This would be an immense pity. We all need to promote these challenging puzzles - and if that means a site like this where newcomers can be heklped to get a toehold and more experienced solvers helped up the steeper slopes, I'm absolutely all for it.

Orientfan. 👏👏👏👏👏👍

To orientfan. Thanks for your input which is much appreciated and I'd echo most of it especially the last paragraph. I do appreciate that sending in a weekly entry becomes fairly expensive. One solver I know sends two entries in one envelope thus halving the cost. If you solve a puzzle and don't submit it then that's up to you. However, you are running the risk of the crossword being ditched if entry numbers fall. Having said that I note that the total number of entries rose during the pandemic which is not that surprising.
As regards the dinners they are an interesting affair and you get the chance to meet your heroes or villains depending on your point of view. They can also instigate some collaboration between setters with the results appearing in the Listener series a few years down the line.

As a fairly recent regular Listener solver, I send mine in still. I’ve won once, and don’t particularly need to again: it’s the stats and notes that keep me motivated to send in, and probably will for a while yet. The first time I manage 100% one year will be a small personal achievement. Eventually I will stop using stamps each week, I guess, but I will probably archive my solutions and send for the stats still. It’s the sending-in deadline that focuses my attention on finishing each week’s puzzle in weeks where it takes me a while!

Enjoyed this week’s very much: clever construction, some delicious clues. For me the novelty of the song titles wore off quite quickly, but still interesting to see what ingenuity was used to include them. Final instruction seems quite clear to me, though I never quite like ones where the actual letters I have sacrificed blood toil sweat and tears to fill in don’t form part of the final submission! But so be it. Crayons out :-)

I can’t figure the wordplay for 26d. If someone could give me a nudge that would be very kind. I know what letter comes out of it, of course, and I have of course carefully consulted my ethical compass.