Crossword Help Forum
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Quixote, the major lost a million pounds for being provided with the answers - unfortunately I do not think that level of forensic evidence is available to our wonderful checker.

I think you make an interesting point regarding anagram-solvers, quixote. They didn't exist when I started solving the Listener and their advent has resulted in crossword setters finding novel ways to reduce their impact over the years (making solving harder via novel gimmicks, more carte-blanche grids, more jumbles etc) and as a result anagram-solvers become more sophisticated! Of course, it's the purist who suffers most in this arms-race.
For me, getting an answer from one of these is much the same as asking for an answer on a site like this one. I think they're just about accepable if there isn't a clue involved (eg an endgame might involve unclued anagrams) but I try to avoid them entirely, and if I can't and I have to use one to solve a clue, I accept defeat.
As it is, I don't submit any of my solutions for prize puzzles - you might just as well enter a lottery - but I submitted my Listener solutions for many years because I liked the idea of a league table.
As I have a severe aversion to numerical puzzles my best hope was an ''all correct minus 4'' and I managed this only once. I stopped submitting my grids the year the editors managed to cram in another 3 or 4 mathematical themes on top of the hated 4, and I've not sent in any since.
As for using the net - it's just a convenient library as far as I'm concerned, and I did use the library in the past (on the plus side, it makes for some very interesting themes).

I think you should only submit your solution if you have solved it with no recourse to the BRB, Bradford's, the tinternet, friends, family or answers received from a higher power.

Sorry - couldn't help it. I attempt the Listener every week and probably succeed around 40% (success rate climbing over the last two years). Depending on how I'm going, I'll use an increasing number of tools over time. Starting with the BRB, then Bradfords, then the Internet, and QAT and various word helpers, and then as a last straw I'll come to the forum here. I keep a personal record of completions (I've never submitted and probably never will), but if I have come to the forum for help and subsequently completed the grid, I don't count that as a success. But if I have used electronic word tools to help me, I do count it as a success. My rules, and I judge myself alone.

So when I'm properly stuck, I come here. And I do so, because I love the puzzle and accept that some will be beyond me. For now. My skills improve by coming here and learning how to overcome those clues that stumped me. I think it's great that there are three threads to help me help myself - thanks Norah! First a gentle nudge in the right direction. If that's not enough, then a firm push, and if all else fails, here's the answer.

And I did 4685 all by myself (plus BRB and Bradford and tinternet...)

I agree, deulc - we've all got our own 'rules' and I wouldn't want to impose mine on anyone else either.
Sadly, there are two opposing schools of thought at work here - and the argument for/against answers goes on and on. Every time an attempt is made to accomodate a suggestion there's an outcry from one side or the other.
This is how the AnswerBank thread declined over time (and I suspect there are a few people on this site who will not be satisfied by anything less than a NO ANSWERS policy across the board). Now we're getting an ANSWERS ONLY thread because there appears to be a reasonable desire to accomodate people who only want answers (why anyone would want answers unless they'd exhausted several decent hints is beyond me - and I wonder what motivates them, if I'm being honest)
If we'd stuck with one thread (or even two threads) and been more disposed to overlook the odd transgression we'd be in a better place than this (in my opinion).

Quixote, I haven't submitted Listener (or any) solutions since Pitt the Younger was PM, so I don't have strong feelings either way about whether it's OK to send in after receiving hints from here. A solver who submits 52 correct entries with no external help may understandably feel aggrieved if the all-correct prize goes to someone who asks for help/answers every week (assuming they know that's the case) - but it's not for me to judge as I'm never going to be that position. Even if I manage to complete every puzzle without error, I'll be four short every year (I don't do the numericals), and there's the practical issue that the veteran pigeons employed by Czech post are unlikely to get my efforts to Mr Green in time. (I don't think there's an email address for submission, though I may be wrong.) In any case, such a discussion is somewhat academic because those determined to cheat can go to Facebook where a former poster from here (I believe) posts the solution every week.

I couldn't agree more with Drxx that it's hard to understand the motivation of people who want answers without exhausting decent hints first. But if an answers only thread keeps all comers happy, by all means let's try it. After all, nobody has to visit it (I won't, most likely). It's a shame though that this has all come about due to what Murky so aptly describes on this week's thread as "the insistent (even bullying) demands of someone who is behaving like a spoiled child who's denied a toy."

Bar a few blips, this forum is welcoming and friendly to both new and experienced solvers, and without doubt has encouraged many to persevere with the Listener when otherwise they may not have done. Let's keep it that way!

drxx - I entirely agree.

I want my puzzles to be enjoyed right through to completion, and if solvers require a nudge to get them past an obstacle or a nod to confirm that they are on the right lines, then I am all in favour of that.

However, seeing answers being provided or elements of the theme given away does annoy me. What deulc fails to say is that when an answer is provided 'gift wrapped' to one person on a public forum such as this it is automatically and unavoidably provided to every other site user.

That is why I think that the EV hints which are published on Big Dave's site are such an excellent innovation - assistance from two highly experienced setters/solvers which is designed to address the tougher aspects of each puzzle and is geared to the difficulty of the puzzle in question.

If it is intended that this forum should continue to provide help on Listener puzzles, I believe that consideration should be given to setting up a small panel of Listener experts who are the only members allowed to provide assistance on the hints/answers thread. This would surely raise both the quality and the consistency level of the assistance provided, as well as keeping the thread length within reasonable bounds.

Thank you all for your response to my post. I have read them all in my usual position of 'sat on the fence with a cushion'.

It has been suggested in a private email that I follow Answerbank's example and refuse to allow any hints, answers or discussions on the Listener.

I can assure all Listener followers that I have no intention of basing our Crossword Forum on Answerbank's procedures. The Listener threads are the most popular on the Forum by a long, long way and I would rather put up with the flack than turn into an imitation of Answerbank.

I do not know the rights and wrongs of giving answers but our name, Crossword Clue solver, gives an idea of the philosophy behind the site. I want to help as many of our Users as possible hence the addition of a thread totally dedicated to Listener answers.

I have been sent the link to the Facebook page which gives answers but have no intention of posting it here. Suffice it to say that the Korean spam of a few years ago made more sense to me than did the answers quoted.

I will finish by saying that the Listener is unique and, as such, is allowed the privilege of extra threads. I am not going down the road of allowing more than one thread for any other crossword.

It is good to see the views of a real setter on this Listener thread.
Noticing answers being posted must cause annoyance and sadness,, after all the very long hours they have toiled to set the puzzle.
I am not against hints/suggestions within reason, and although there is, at present, a separate thread for answers, I notice that none have actually been given, in spite of one or two individuals screaming for an answer.

norah, thank you for that very clear statement of intent, it's certainly put my mind at ease.

loge (we have more in common than I thought!) there's been quite a lot written about the demanding, confrontational tone of the person wanting answers. It certainly hasn't helped the cause of those of us who don't mind giving them on very rare occasions, in fact it's done an awful lot of good for the opposing side in this argument (which could explain why answers weren't given this time, jazzgirl).

asetter, I'm glad we agree on the major points but I don't like your idea for a select panel of contributors. We'd pretty soon see the help slow to a trickle before drying up altogether if the AB experience is anything to go by.

I have not contributed to the considerable amount of flak this week. One reason is that the current puzzle proved too difficult for me. Unless I can get five or six answers straight off I know I wont't be able to progress, I'm simply not good enough.
However, if I can get a toe hold, then most weeks I find an answers thread (however defined) really useful and it encourages me to persevere. Likely many people of my age I have a dread of dementia and the more mental exercise that I can get ready access to and can enjoy the better.

So thanks Norah for what you are doing and thanks to all who contribute so willingly. Let the grumps whinge and keep up the good work. I appreciate it.