Crossword Help Forum
Forum Rules

It's true that the two threads are not yet working quite smoothly, but I don't think we necessarily need to change anything again, and we may wear out norah's patience here! The rubrics for the two threads were quite carefully thought out a while back, and I think we should follow them. So, let's notice that THIS thread CAN INCLUDE HINTS ("gentle hints to clues and VERY gentle hints to the theme"). There've been a few times recently when some jumping-down-throats has occurred when hints have been sought or given here. If we stick to *gentle* hints here, then those of us who find an occasional nudge helpful but don't want to see anything too blatant that we cannot unsee can safely stay on this thread, leaving the other thread for more generous hints possibly with theme spoilers and even answers when appropriate, for those struggling or needing more help. If the response to a hint requested here may be a little too revealing, then posting it to the other thread with a note here seems a quite reasonable thing to do -- and maybe the note here could include the post number containing that response on the other thread so that someone going there to look for it doesn't have to risk looking through all the discussion there and maybe seeing more than they want to! But if the hint can be given gently here I think we shouldn't be afraid of doing so.

In terms of how soon after publication hints/answers are given and whether answers are given directly or hints should be preferred first, well, I don't think that needs to be a matter for formal rubric. The other thread *allows* answers, but that doesn't anyone should feel *obliged* to furnish answers straight away for demanding types impatient to skip hints! It seems to me entirely in keeping with the spirit of a challenging and thought-provoking puzzle like the Listener that requests for help within the first couple of days after the puzzle is published might get more gentle hints, as it is still "quite soon", and only if solvers are still stuck after a few days does more generous help become appropriate. And likewise it seems to me entirely in spirit to offer hints first, even if answers are asked for: we are not minions at the beck and call of answer-demanders, and more generous hints and/or answers can perhaps follow eventually if someone is really struggling to decode a clue. As others have mentioned, this is a PRIZE crossword, so being too ready to encourage the asking and giving of answers directly is probably not what we should be about. BUT if someone *does* give an answer directly in response to a request, let's remember that they've not broken any rule: they've just been a bit hastier than some of us would prefer to have been.

I actually think this community is pretty good on the whole at giving pointers that are informative and helpful and not too revealing, with just the occasional slip where someone spills a little bit more than is the norm, and I hope we can continue to self-moderate that approach because it was extremely helpful to me when I first starting tackling Listeners and I still find it very useful when the tougher puzzles come along, or when I want to figure out the last bits of parsing for my own learning, and I hope that can continue to be the case.

PS apologies for a post that is longer and more tedious than I'd realised as I typed it :-)

On the hints and discussion front, how do experienced solvers approach an endgame like this one, which involves a lot of moving things around? It's not easy to reorder rows by rubbing-out-and-rewriting. I've started solving on a printed copy (thanks tatters!), intending to then copy the final grid into the right places in the original when I get to that bit. But does anyone have other ingenious ways of managing this kind of task within one grid?

I wrote my initial answers in small letters in the lower left corner of each cell and after the grid was filled and I figured how the rows had to be sorted, I numbered each row with its eventual destination and then transcribed carefully.

Not in one grid, exactly, but make a copy of blank grid, work in pencil, cut into rows, use blu-tack and impose rows on blank grid according to known column. Endgame takes 10 mins

Mooncow, I printed off another copy of the puzzle and wrote the rows in using the revised order once I'd realised what was needed. I made a mess of it (natch!) and had to print yet another copy before I got it right.

No need at all to apologise for your post at 31. You make the point well and, I suspect, speak for the great majority of those of us who frequent this forum.

I always do the listener on a spreadsheet. Creating the grid usually takes 5-10minutes and then I have a grid I can play with. Deffo answers are entered in black and educated guesses lacking full parsing in red. For this one, once I had the full grid it was a simple cut and paste to create two grids, the 2nd then vacated and re-filled/completed by cutting and pasting row by row from the original grid. I am of course occasionally snookered by hexagonal grids and their ilk.

Thanks tatters and malone : )

Just completed this very enjoyable puzzle by Little Hare. I agree with the comments about Listener's not being meant to be easy. I buy the paper on Saturday, often take a week or more to complete the puzzle and sometimes finish the following week's before going back and finishing this one. But putting the paper down for a while often reveals the problem clue when picked up again and I deplore the habit of asking for hints and even answers shortly after publication. If you want the answers wait a couple of weeks and they are available on the website. More frustrating is when I complete the puzzle but then can't send it in because the endgame defeats me. I just hope that those who demand answers don't make submissions.