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madamearcati

17th December 2024, 17:58
Muraria, the penultimate grid is NOT overwritten!! It's rearranged.
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drxx

17th December 2024, 18:24
I think you're simply indulging in semantics, madamearcati - the penultimate grid must be overwritten because it already contains printed letters.
In fact the endgame could have been guessed at and completed without doing any sums at all.
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madamearcati

17th December 2024, 21:34
drxx, not semantics. The puzzle as originally submitted did not include the eight synonyms but required solvers to rearrange the letters in grid E to create a word square. Unfortunately, test-solvers found that too difficult, so the eight synonyms were added. You appear to have managed to use those to short-cut the process, thereby missing the need for rearrangement. Perhaps it would have been better to just add synonyms for, say, four of the final grid's words.
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drxx

17th December 2024, 22:53
How can I circumvent a process that isn't part of the puzzle? Present the puzzle another way and I'll attempt to solve it that way.

As I mentioned earlier, once the synonym containing the initial letters of the other seven is found, it's 'game over' - why would anyone want to complicate it further? And if I hadn't guessed (correctly, as it happens) that I could halve the awful tedium of the sums, I wouldn't have bothered with the endgame at all.

It's too late now to think about adjusting the level of difficulty for the puzzle.
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quisling

17th December 2024, 23:12
I am four square with drxx on this. I completed the puzzle in exactly the same way, and I imagine so did many others, so if that amendment was made, it was a pretty daft one.

I think the puzzle would have been borderline insoluble without any guidance as to the new words to be formed (Alexa, make eight eight-letter words in Chambers using only these 64 letters) and there was no mention of the word “rearrangement”.

I sense you have some “skin in the game”, madamearcati, but you may be forgetting that we only have the information printed in the puzzle to guide how we solve it.
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muraria

18th December 2024, 07:35
I'm 'foursquare' (sorry!) with you both on this quisling and drxx.

The synonyms provide a fairly straightforward path of least resistance to what would have otherwise been a nigh impossible task.
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madamearcati

18th December 2024, 12:02
Quisling and Muraria, many thanks for your well-worded comments, which have been passed on. Is either of you a setter? One of the nice things about setting puzzles for the Listener is getting constructive and supportive feedback from other setters - something which is sometimes lacking here! Given that removing all synonyms might have made the puzzle well nigh insoluble, while providing all eight synonyms allowed the intended final re-arrangement to be totally by-passed, how do you think the puzzle might have been improved to force solvers to make the rearrangement? Mention requirement for rearrangement while giving a synonym for the first eight-letter word? Or something else?
Once again, thanks for your feedback.
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quisling

18th December 2024, 12:11
That’s a good and fair question, madamearcati. Even the NW-SE diagonal was less helpful than it might be, because one only knows 6 of the 8 letters, in some order, as an odd number of them appears in the final grid. The repeated O complicates that. So I’ll think about how the “rearrangement” could be signalled so that the whole solving process can be completed, and get back to you.
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quisling

18th December 2024, 12:16
I should add that I enjoyed the puzzle a great deal, and appreciated all the work that had clearly gone into its compilation. Sadly I’m not a setter, just one of Banjo Patterson’s “Riders In The Stand”.
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muraria

18th December 2024, 12:25
Hello madamearcati,
I think the puzzle as a whole is a brilliant construction and as I said @post 13 it must have take Arcadia a good while to put together.
I will leave it to quisling and others to get back to you on your request.
The only thought I had was whether, instead of synonyms scattered through the clues to grids A to D, there could have been a separate set of cryptic clues or allusions to the 8 rearranged grid E entries, under grid E. Easier said than done of course but one idea would be split each of the 8-letter words into 2x4, provide clues to each 4-letter word (or non-word) and then ask solvers to rearrange correctly in the final grid. Or something on those lines, to make the final grid a 'solvable challenge'.
Have a lovely Christmas...
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