By the way, Jim, I spent hours last night going through dozens of websites on Elizabethan clothing, (I now know more than I never wanted to know about the subject and I can assure you that should I come back as Elizabeth I in a next life, I will be more than appropriately dressed!!) and there were references to stovepipe hats on most of them. Apparently the taller the hat the more important the person. I'm still not happy with that as I agree with you, stovepipe hats were more Victorian, Abe Lincoln springs immediately to mind. But.... I did spy on "the other place" this afternoon, but don't tell anybody, and there was one pitiful thread from a person named TeenageOAP too frightened to actually ask for help, just wanted somebody to sympathize with them, and there the consensus seems to lean towards "sou'westers" which I think is good but, being pedantic I still have a problem with the two extremes bit which to me should be either south/north or west/east not south/west. Any ideas anybody?