Crossword Help Forum
Forum Rules

Thanks wouldn’t have got the e ring bit

Thanks, Spoffy. I don't much like that either! I'm not a fan of a word in the clue being part of the answer - I'd rather Off had been clued. I'd never heard of the E-Ring, which matters not one bit - but it finished in 2006, and I think that does. I feel that's too long ago to be clued by just 'military drama series'.

PS Yes, I know I sound like a real fusspot - it was sparked off by disappointment!

Malone:

I completely agree about words in the clue being part of the answer - I can accept one-letter words (A or I), two-letter words I can just about tolerate at a push, but anything longer is a no-no.

I had a discussion a while ago (possibly on this site) regarding the 'currency' of cultural references, in the context I think of a clue which made reference to the TV show The Prisoner. My view is that the passing of time is not directly relevant, as fame can be amplified as well as diminished by its passage (I'm thinking here, say, of Van Gogh, or the aforementioned Prisoner, which was sufficiently well-known to be parodied in The Simpsons many years after its last transmission).

What I think is important is whether at the time the clue appears the person/programme/film/whatever is the subject of a reasonable level of public awareness. Mozart hasn't written anything decent for ages, but I'm sure he passes the test; Tony Hatch (a household name within my memory) definitely does not.

I also don't think that the 'level' of culture is relevant - a soap star may be known to far more of the population at that particular point in time than a classical actor. Repeated use of references perceived as highbrow runs the risk of reinforcing the idea that crosswords are elitist.

Regarding this particular clue, I felt the series title Gunsmoke would have been OK in the US, where it is regularly retransmitted, but not in the UK. I know nothing of the E-Ring and would never, ever have used its title in a puzzle even if I had. A truly weak clue.

Thanks, Spoffy. You echoed many of my thoughts, particularly about the level of culture and also the level of awareness of a show. I'd have been able to accept M.A.S.H, Dr Who, ER, but would have had reservations about many others. I agree that the agedness of 'Gunsmoke' wouldn't have mattered in an American crossword. Like you I know nothing about the E-Ring and feel it's probably not worthy - under the various criteria - for inclusion in a puzzle.

I'm glad you agreed about the repetitive 'Off' - that was definitely too weak, lazy.

That's good to hear. And I completely agree about the shows you mention.

But did you think, "Tony Hatch - why, he's far more famous in 2020 than Mozart"?

Spoffy, I didn't mention the Tony Hatch part because I didn't know who he was, though his name was vaguely familiar! I've since read up on him and don't think he's worthy of a place in any current crosswords - though that might have been different in the 'Crossroads' era.

Ia in today's Guardian might have prompted the memory
Topping stuff from J Trent's collaborator (6)
It proved a bit controversial!

What an extraordinary coincidence! I never go near the Guardian puzzle (or questions about it) because it brings me out in blotches, so had no idea about that clue, but I would consider it 100% (at least) unfair in a mainstream puzzle.

(my original choice for 'known once, now forgotten' was Pete Burns - don't tell me he's in the Guardian puzzle too!!)

Malone, that's exactly what I wanted to hear. Tony Hatch produced a succession of hits for different artists, wrote a number of hit songs, and then in the 70s he was the 'most hated man on TV' as the nasty judge on the talent show New Faces, a role which has become an essential element of every successful 'panel judgment' show since. Not to mention writing the theme music for Crossroads and Emmerdale [Farm, as was]. He was very well known indeed.

But I would suggest that his name is not now on everyone's lips.

[Although having, it seems, appeared in today's Guardian puzzle perhaps his fame is about to experience a sudden resurgence!]