Crossword Help Forum
Forum Rules

I am all in favour of encouraging beginners, but see the parallel AnswerBank thread for how (in my opinion) to do it.

No Thanks Love, not interested. Now why don't you 'off home to Answerbank. Oh sorry! Am I not being urbane enough and following YOUR revised conventional code of conduct and etiquette?

Hey! I didn't even swear then.

I don't do the Listener crossword.
I don't mind Answerbank sticking to its code/rules/convention of not giving answers to Listener crosswords.
I do, however, find the tone of some of the comments on AB, re Listener and Crossword Help Forum, rather unpleasant. One ABer said today, 'The rules of [Crossword Solver] forum do not seem to indicate that this is in any way prohibited.'
There is also the suggestion that this forum should 'amend the rules to preclude overt giving of solutions.'
Why should anyone on AB think they are entitled to change the way things are done on another, separate forum/crossword site?

That's quite a selective edit, chips. The post from which you quote actually says: "... to preclude overt giving of of solutions to prize puzzles before the submission date", which is far less prescriptive and more reasonable, don't you think?

Having now read the rest of the comments in that particular AB thread, none seems at all unpleasant to me, and certainly none stoops to using personal insults, which can't be said of responses here.

Unhelpful, I shortened the quote only to avoid going on at great length.

'...to preclude overt giving of solutions to prize puzzles before the submission date.' Why does this apply only to Listener puzzles? Other crosswords can be as difficult to solve - Mephisto, Inquisitor - but the answers to these are given very readily. Why is it OK to help with one crossword, but not with another?
I agree totally with one AB poster, 'We see the Listener as different, but other people simply do not share that view.'

As someone who has been criticised for giving answers to the so called 'Advanced Cryptics'
(EV, Inquisitor, Azed etc) I do believe I am helping the less experienced solvers trying to progress.
As for The Listener I do think they have a special case.The other puzzles, while being prize ones, do not have a points & league system for solvers, resulting in an annual dinner & award ceremony for the leading
contributors.
I am a Listener solver but I do not participate in the discussions on Answerbank and elsewhere.

I think there are some valid points here. As I mentioned a few weeks ago, I am an occasional setter of thematic crosswords, and so I acknowledge at the outset that I am totally biased - please feel free to take my comments in that vein.

Fundamentally, this is a crossword help forum - and it is a free country. The idea of censoring the internet is somewhat terrifying, and it is hardly as if we are dealing with state secrets here (even those of us, like me, who treasure the Listener, amongst other advanced crosswords).

More than that, it is great that more people - who are obviously skilled solvers - are taking an interest in the Listener and are giving, and getting, mutual support.

I personally - and it is just my view - think that it's a shame that SO much information is given away in the questions; they could just as easily be asked/answered either privately, or more cryptically. The thread above pretty gives away all of the "fun" penny-dropping-moments, which is just a bit unnecessary. As a setter, I spend hours - many, many hours - trying to make sure that the penny dropping moments are a thing of delight - and it is really a bit dispiriting to see them just revealed casually.

For what it's worth, I'd feel the same about any "live" competition crossword. It's not that anyone's seriously in it for the prize (no point in trying the Listener if you don't own Chambers!) But the "PDMs" seem obvious when you've got them - but they're not obvious if you haven't yet, and it's a shame to let the cat out of the bag, and spoil the surprise, for solvers who want to come onto forums like this for a "nudge" or even just moral support without having the whole game spoiled.

These are just my thoughts - hope no-one takes offence. The key thing is that people are enjoying doing a great crossword. But (selfishly!) I'd ask people to at least think of the poor setter before asking very overt questions.

Fascinating, this latest phase in the endless discussion on forum ethics. I don't normally try The Listener, but I agree almost totally with what Tony & the last contributor have just said.In the end surely it boils down to remaining as discreet as possible, having some empathy with the general atmosphere on a particular thread, for which you can never (not even with the best will in the world) dictate rules democratically arrived at.But even then don't we all occasionally go too far, at least in the opinion of some other contributor(s)?
Above all on the question of tone (very difficult to gauge with any certainty online) I would very seriously plead for politeness however serious the disagreements.In the mere 2 years I've been taking part in these two forums there have been very few rea

(sorry) really serious lapses, but they were quite obviously deliberate & duly "punished".Ultimately I find this point even more important: Internet, as is well recognized nowadays, unfortunately lends itself to abuse by that tiny minority that is just looking for trouble. For a long time now in my opinion the tone on CS has remained civilized, friendly & helpful: long may that continue!

I was going to respond to the complaints about my post here, and also the moaning on answerbank about this thread which I have just read,but whats the point,I hope those who have complained (apparently some have emailed editor) also put as much energy into the important things in life
leon